You cannot put the decisions you make on your gender itself though - its ridiculous. My original point, and the one that I still believe, is that someone who does things simply because it is expected of them - such as watch/play sport, not show interest in things that could be seen effeminate, and generally do stupid things - may be more 'manly', when that word is used is as an adjective, but it makes them weak, for succumbing to peer pressure, and not actually doing as they want. Theres nothing wrong with watching sport, but if you don't enjoy it particularly and do it to seem cool, its just the same as a girl doing something shallow to impress other girls.

The idea of manliness and masculinity revolves around the ideas of being strong. But it takes a lot more balls to do something that other guys don't do, and mental strength imo is much more respectable than physical strength. But what I'm trying to say is that physical gender doesn't actually define a person, on any basis. Women can be strong in every sense of the word, and so the word 'manly' is entirely sexist. I've been raised in believing that the idea that one person is better than another - as regards to gender, race, country of origin, family wealth, sexual orientation, or any other undecided factor - is a primitive idea that the majority of the society I live in is past. A person is only defined by their actions and their opinions; reactions to those around them, and none of these things should have an ability to make a person a bad person, or better person, and therefore, you cannot have pride in them - you cannot have pride in them.

The only exception is if it is something you are supressed for - I have pride in my sexuality because it was something that caused me emotional harm I shouldn't have been through, and its something I have been discriminated against for and have felt unaccepted for. I'm not particularly proud, but I'm glad that I managed to pull myself through. The suicide rates for gay teenagers is seven times higher than for anyone else, because Have you ever felt supressed as a man? I support feminist movements, anti-racism campaigns, etc. etc.

But if you have pride in your gender, or your country, or your family's wealth, it isn't proper pride. Its you sitting on your high horse, thinking you're better than everyone else because of how fortunate you were to be born into what you were born to. In a middle eastern country, it is more understandable, but I have no pride in Britain, because there is nothing that I actually contributed to that I'm proud of. I don't believe I should be proud of my country's football team, or government, or TV networks, or the likes - I may be thankful for them, and glad that these represent me, but none of these honestly have to do with me (until I can legally vote, anyhow). I'm not proud of them. If you've protected your country's borders, then you can be proud of your country as a physical land area - but if you do that simply for pride in your country, I believe you've done wrong, because no country is worth a single on of the lives lost in wars. If the new government was going to kill people under its power, you were protecting the people within your country - and in this case, the innitial aggressor is the one that I'm against.

And as for leaving an impact - I want to be a musician. And I want to be a musician because music helps people; it shows people they can relate to other people, and in stronger music, it can give people strength. It can touch people, it can make them realise things they wouldn't have realised otherwise. It can cause people to question themselves, and it can make them stronger. Certain songs have done this for me, and the reason I want to be a musician is because I want to reach out to people, first and foremostly. And this is the sort of thing I think matters in life - reaching out to other people, helping them, and leaving an impact on them. I don't care if my genes are passed on, or if I'm remembered at all, I just want to help people. On a religious level, I hope to help people find god, but I just want to help other people really.

But I agree with Dattie zombs. And its ignorant to do things to define 'a man', you should do things to define yourself and yourself only.

The things that define a man are the things that define the whole of the human race. That is, being kind, and doing your duty to the world. The duty, that is, is not being a good man, but being a good person. Being Ignorant is forgeting these values and substituting them with ones that don't help the world.

I don't remember saying anything about manliness being about sports, anti-feminism, etc. I mean am into those things but it just comes by default, I never said that a man is defined by those things, quite to the contrary, a man stands up and isn't afraid to say he doesn't like this stuff, a man doesn't search for acceptance, that's what my manliness is about, not succumbing to other people's ideals or expectations....so in short, this paragraph I have nothing against.


I agree with the part that manliness doesn't revolve around physical strengh, but emotional and mental strength, I know many guys wrapped in muscles and talk tough, but I don't consider these people real men, because I know their type and they're all sell-outs, and have no idea what honour is.

on the point of those traits not being defined to just men, but can apply to women. ok, I agree, but look at it this way, let's go back thousands of years ago to the beginning of time, when humans survived by hunting, gardening, carpentry, woodcutting...etc. it's no opinion that men are built physically stronger and are able to do these things while women cannot, so it was men who went out and brought home the bread, men who wnet out and fought, and women stayed home and supported their men, so from that, this is the definition of a Man. so when you ask me what I think Manliness is, I go back to the original defintion, so people nowadays who behave like the men of old, are more entitled to be titled as "men", not saying that others who don't aren't men, but still don't have as much right ot reason to.

and about your thoughts on pride, you reckon that every person should only be proud of what they themeselves have acheived, and not there country or ancestors before them, I disagree, it's like saying that all scientists should start science from scratch and not build up on the science of the past, that's what brings progress, it's great minds from every generation building up on each other's work to bring us to where we are today. I come from a country that single handedly drove the british out of Jordan and Syria even though thry were outnumbered, a country who's men fought for our freedom's, dying in battle is the best way to die in my opinion, obviously I'm against war and the killing of innocent people, but if there was a war in Jordan today, I would go out into battle without hesititation because I know I have something worth dying for, that's my decision, I'm not saying that that's how all people should think, but I can't imagine what sort of person I would be without that sense of selflesness.. my granfathers did amazing things, why can't I build up on that pride they have accumilated? why should I be so selfish to have my own pride? why can't i take the things I have to be proud of and stockpile it on the Al-Raqqad legacy, so that my children can have a strong sense of belonging, and no, being proud isn't about being superior, I don't know if you understand that. a horse runs it's own race without looking at the other horses, a family has it's own pride without looking at the pride of others.

I consider manliness and character to be different things, to me anyone who is manly has a deep voice, doesn't talk much, is taller than 6'4," and has a bigger build. So in my opinion people who are gay can be manly, people who don't drink beer can be manly, and people who don't join the army can be manly.

But yeah that's just me... I'm weird :s (ok I get it I'm shallow)

I don't ever pay attention to whoever being "manly" though, but I do take notice much more of those who try to take on the "power position..."

But yeah personally I don't contribute singing or doing things differently as being manly. Sorry

Interesting topic

I don't want to get involved in some kind of religious debate, but you make a massive assumption in saying that humans were around at "the beginning of time." Also, I assume you mean chopping wood, not woodcutting...which is something different and not really necessary for survival at all.



You are right, that's not an opinion. It's a poorly constructed interpretation. There is a very large deviation in the physical strength of men. I am also under the impression that women are able to hunt, garden, etc.



Yikes. The definition of a Man is "an adult human male." The "men of old" didn't spend 100% of their time hunting, gardening, building things, or gathering wood. Ancient men, being rather unintelligent, indubitably, at some time or another, beat the **** out of each other, urinated on themselves, walked around nude (in public), defecated in public, and had intercourse with animals. Do I have to do all of that to be a man?




I don't understand where the "you are either proud of yourself or proud of your country" dichotomy comes from. I also don't understand how this is relevant to a thread based around the concept of masculinity. There is also a huge, huge difference between saying "I do not feel deep, personal satisfaction that my country/ancestors have accomplished things" and "screw all past scientific discoveries."



So...you are against war and killing innocent people, but...you still want to go to war and kill innocent people?



What the hell does this even mean? Pride isn't some physical thing that you can expand by attaching more pride to it.



If your grandfathers have this amazing stockpile of pride, obviously they are pretty pleased with themselves. Still though, I don't understand how you stockpile pride onto something...especially a metaphysical concept such as a "legacy."



Okay at this point I am playing devil's advocate, but a horse doesn't look at the other horses because outside forces strap things over its eyes so it can only look forward. Pride implies satisfaction, and part of that satisfaction very well may be a feeling of superiority.



Your language is suddenly so...penile.

sorry, I hate to sound cynical, but I don't really have anything to say to that, in the sense that you haven't really said anything worth me answering and wasting a lot of time quoting and un quoting. but your arguments, and again I'm not trying to sound cynical, are kind of poorly compiled and a bit futile.....obviously I'm not saying that mine are any better seeing as they're mostly passionate and are void of any real basis. doesn't mean they're any less valid though

I stopped posting back cause everything zombs said in his last post is fair enough I guess, although I agree with anarchyyeah too like that awesome scene from fiddler on the roof, where he agrees with everyone (if you've not seen it, you're missing out ): )



I wasn't actually tributing any of those things to 'being manly', but instead making the point that manliness doesn't really mean anything, and its not synonymous to strong, or anything desirable, its just a trait.

Did this thread start out to discuss how "manly" one feels against social norms and what being a man means to oneself, or was the purpose to tell others and convince them how to be manly?

To be honest, I feel manly enough topping another dude. I mean, I'm in charge, so that's still cool, right?

I assumed it was made for members to express what the term "manliness" meant to them, it turns out it was thread to make IX feel better about how he thinks about "manliness"...and somehow became a debate about who's right and who's wrong.

well, although all of you make a good argument, manliness is purely an opinion. Has you can tell from what we all have said about it, theres no right or wrong answer, and everyone thinks about it in a different way. one person may think it means to be really strong, and tall, and have a deep voice and all that. but another may think it's a man who fights for his country/community. or that manliness is just a term that regards to being a man, and how much of one you are anatomically. (lol)