Exactly my point, shinashu taji. Baptism only cleanses us of our Original Sin, and at the same time, brings us closer to Christ by becoming a child of God.

I feel I should make a small edit to clear things up: Partly because of beliefs and partly because of how I've been raised, I am not an Orthodox or Conservative Jew. I do go to Hebrew lessons once a week to ensure that I remember how to read Hebrew and to help me remember the important parts of my religion, which is as close as I'll probably ever get to setting foot in side a temple due to my cluttered schedule. Even the chances of my receiving of a Bar Mitzvah are shady at best because of money issues and the issue of a divorce between my parents (they've been divorced since I was in first grade.). I think that that information will help people understand my point of view a bit better.

@ Edoc'sil

That was very interesting. I find that that is the way I see religion. I do not believe a divine being because there is no proof.

Do I think the world is better without religion? Yes and No. In theory, no. Religion, teaches people a lot of good things. Like treating everyone right and being a well rounded good person. Yet in reality, religion makes a barrier between peoples that doesn't need to be there. Not to say religion is the only barrier, it is just a big one. Some may argue that without religion and a threat of a divine punishment people would do whatever. I find this untrue, or atleast unlikely. Think of all the people that killed in the name of a god. Think of all the murderers that went to church. Did religion stop them? No. I believe that with or without religion there will still be hate, violence, and evil.

Villains always make themselves out to be the good guys in their minds, sadly. I quoted that from some one, but I don't know who... Anyway, like almost anything, it's true that religion has advantages and disadvantages. Many good things were caused by it, but also many bad things. Nothing's perfect.

@ Azure-

Religion (specially Christianity) doesn't get rid or"hate, violence, and evil". Why? Because its human nature. Christian's can be identified by there becoming more Christlike. True Christians stick out like a Geek in a locker room. As Christians we strive to be more Christ like. Other religions can't make that claim. So in general "religion" doesn't stop hate et...

Is religion good for the world? NO!

Is Christianity good for the world? YES!

Why?

because:

1) Before the time of Christ Infanticide (killing of newborn babies), gladiatorial fights and mass slaughters, human sacrifices, and sucide was practiced by every previous society especially the Romans. However Christians valued life and wouldn't participate, saved children, and stood against this. Surely stopping infanticide is good for the world?

2) At the time of Christ during the peak of the Roman empire heterosexual, homosexual, bestial and PEDOPHILIA was wide spread in the society. Boys would be castrated for pleasure of older males, the majority of society had no sexual morality. In fact the Roman empire was so depraved and out of control that laws were passed to punish prostitutes. However Christians came along and valued marriage, valued their sexual gifts and made family worthwhile. The believed they were made in Christ's image and they had to be honoring him. Christianity became so widespread that pedophilia and beastality has been shunned by most societies for the last two millennia even by non Christian societies. Surely stopping pedophilia and castration and valuing marriage is good for the world?

3)Women were treated better by Christians than people before them. Athenian women were not allowed to be outside of their quaters. Roman women were under complete control of her husband, couldnt eat with him, and the married man could kill his wife or children if he willed. Christian men viewed women as important and constantly pushed her rights. Not surprisingly then western countries influenced by Christianity were the first to give women full rights. Surely giving women rights and freeing her from basically slavery was good for the world?

In case your wondering to summerize about 10 more points i want to make:

4) Hospitals were started by christian monks who believed in carrying for people.

5) labor & economic freedom was first practiced by Christian men.

6) classical science was founded by Christian men.

7) Personal Rights was an idea founded by Christians.

and much more. I have a list. (from How Christianity Changed the World by Alvin J. Schmidt who lists every source and collaborated with doctors and experts in each field)

Anyway- I ask- Is Christianity good for the World? If Christianity is fake what could cause Jesus Christ of Nazareth and 12 men the millions to go so contrary to the society they were in? Why would they die for a crazy belief?

@ KingErick
I believe Jesus was real and was probably a great guy. I also believe Christianity has blown him way out of proportion. Perfectionists are the angriest, saddest people on Earth. Since Christians strive to be Christ, wouldn

I have things to say on multiple points: As far as sacrifice, I'm pretty sure Jews only sacrificed their best crop or animal, or whatever their result of agriculture. Also, I'm almost positive that it was the Egyptians that first gave equal rights to women. They could be priestesses, buy and sell property, obtain divorces, etc etc. Egyptians also knew of healing. In another subject, I belive also that no religion is entirely 'right'. In each religion there may be fragments of truth and if we could peice together what tose fragments are, we may well be much better off. Finally, and I'm quoting here, if there is a divine being, and I'm not saying there is or isn't, then they aren't having a very benevolent rule. Poverty, hunger, evil, all running amok in the world. And while there very well may be a god, shouldn't they be overthrown or destroyed for their deeds, not loved? I was going to say another thing, but I forgot it. Anyway, no one person or religion is 'right'. They all, as I said before, have shards of truth. If we only knew what were those shards.

@ both of you- I know a fair amount about ancient temple religions but I want to do alittle more research before I open dialogue on that topic. I'll expand on that in a day or two. The major point though I was trying (rather badly i might add xD ) to make about women was that at a time that Christianity came about they had no rights and no say and Christianity instilled the respect of women and sanctity of life.

@Azure- "I believe Jesus was real and was probably a great guy. I also believe Christianity has blown him way out of proportion. "

I don't understand how if you are not a Christian you can say that Jesus is a good guy. He claimed to be the Son of God, inspired millions of people to go against the major world government of the day, and of his initial twelve, eleven died in his name and then millions started to follow and get martyred. If he was a liar and is not the son of God then Jesus is the murderer of every Christian who died for Him. Then to top it off he offered eternal life. That is completely nuts. Jesus then must be a madmen who led 100's of millions to there death. Also, the early church leaders and the apostles who must have known it was a lie also died for him. Now if they knew it was a lie why did none of them recant? And there is no way that the disciples who were there through his "ministry" which must have seen all lies and propaganda didn't know it was false. Why would these 12 con men follow him, and why would 11 of them die? Jesus is mad or He is God.

Imagine if somebody came out now claiming to be God's son and going against the government and then telling people they had to suffer and die for him. He'd be labelled an absolute lunatic. But with Christians these people started challenging the world view and and they changed the entire world as we know it. They willing then gave up a life of sexual pleasure, and actually value human life and brought around Western civilization. They accepted rules and a delusional promise that somehow got believed in for 2000 years all started by a raving, mad, lunatic guy who thought he was God incarnate.

I don't understand how so many people could be transformed and die for a lie. Christians ether are the luckiest or the most damned people on the planet.

on subject of good or evil: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-235


@ Witch Burnings- I'm going to get this out of the way. Christians and Catholics have fundamental differences. You can't judge Christianity by off what they did. Catholism is a perversion of Christianity. Some Catholics are Christians but Catholics overall are very works based. Christians don't believe that Hail Mary's and Baptism will save you.

About New Salem- I'm aware of the subject of from my APUSH class. A couple things to keep in mind about witch hunts:

1) Before Salem 91 witches had been tried in Connecticut and Mass. and 18 were founded guilty and hanged. (not burned)

2) The Church leaders didn't wake up one morning and starting hanging each other. It began with two young girls having seizures and the rest of the town starting to flood with accusations. They threw each other under the bus in droves. IF the church leaders were at fault it was for accepting spectral evidence and getting caught up in the emotion. They didn't accuse people, the people did it to each other and the officials had to sort out the mess.

@whoever- subject of evolution- did you read that? In doesn't explain the big bang. It says he got an award for it but they don't go into detail. Find me proof! I want to learn.

@ KingErick

I see the point you were trying to make. Christianity may have helped out the world a long time ago. But in he past 2000 years we have learned a lot. A lot about things that make us have second guesses about religion. Sure maybe 3000 years ago we may have killed eachother without a threat of divine punishment. I think we know better now. We are no longer children. Think of it this way, when you were small your parents told you Santa Claus was real Highlight to view spoiler.
(a lie) and told us that if we were bad Santa would give us nothing. Now that we are all hrown up we no longer need Santa to make us behave. Santa is like religion. It was needed to keep us inline when we were young, but now it has no purpose.

On the whole Jesus thing. Nazi propaganda was used to make people think that all those that died needed to die. Allbecause a couple of sick dudes wanted them to really. Couldn't all the people dying in the name of Jesus be the same deal? n another note, how do you know those tellings of Jesus are true?

The article I referred to you surved no purpose in explaining the Big Bang. Discoverey has a good show about it called "into the universe" I am a little busy so my next post I'll post a link to a good article, or edit this post.

on another topic, the crusades. That was the catholics right?

@KingErick: seriously, I laughed hard at how you said Jesus could very well be crazy and christains could be damned, but there is an equal possibility that 1) he did exist and Christians were right all along, or 2) every other religion can be equally wrong and damned or right and lucky.

Oh, and I remember what I was going to say before: A good outlook, I think, is in the Warriors series: the Clans believe that their ancetors go to a place called StarClan, or if they're evil, the dark forest where no prey runs and you must forever walk the forest alone. Anyway, they pray to StarClan, give them thanks for prey, et cetera et cetera, but know they cannot change physical problems with the Clans.

on another topic, the over all theory of Adam and Eve disturbs me. I means that who ever we end up dating, it's a relative. Eurgh. Surely, if God made the first humans, he would keep that in mind and make multiple people so that may be avoided? A last thing:
1) the big bang happened
2) planets, stars, et cetera were formed
3)after a long time, the Earth was formed

With certain atmospheric conditions, the first signs of life appeared in the ocean. After evolution, (skipping stuff here and there) dinosaurs, then neadrathals were formed. Neandrathals evolved and after a LONG time we get us. Whereas in the Bible it portays the first two humans as just like us and attractive. From evidence, we have found the first humans had large foreheads and eyes. Oh, wait, the Bible might not portray them to look good, but people definitely have.

Isn't the point of this thread to understand on each another better? If the only way to do it is by friendly arguing, so be it.

exactly. this open dialogue is vital. It's what separates religious nuts from me like religious nuts who blow up stuff

and it seperates fools who don't want to learn from people who do.

anyway- ill post a detailed post on the creation/evidence for/against evolution of the earth, and whatever else i read through and feel i need to answer.

oh! the temple stuff. Ill get on that.

Also- @azure- i didn't quite understand your long post about Santa? could you make it clearer? maybe its just me. Ill reread it after i get back from the family events i have to do today.

What I meant with the Santa analogy is that when we were young and had little to no self control, our parents told us that if we were good we would get presents from Santa but if we were bad we would get coal. The whole Santa concept may have been a lie, but it was necessary to keep little children from misbehaving.

Religion, the way I see it, is very similar. When humanity was young we had little self control. We would go around raping and murdering people just because we can. Religion came into play to tell us if we are good we have an excellent afterlife, but if we are bad we suffer from divine punishment. Now that humanity is grown up we no longer need the charade that is religion. We have the self control to know not to meaninglessly harm each other. People that still murder and rape will do so with or without religion.

I'm preparing my self for a two week trip leaving tomorrow so i'm really busy. expect the actual research stuff in a couple of days.

In terms of "humanity growing up" I would say that human culture has advanced. We overall hold our governments responsible and cry out and refuse to be ignored. Religion. specifically Christianity, while it impacts culture is not preoccupied with it. Christianity is occupied with the state of men's souls and that has not improved. The human itself of today is not better than the human of yesteryears. You look at the news, even in civilized countries there is rape, murder, theft, and so many other despicable crimes. Also another sign of human personality breakdown is the return of sexual morality to its worser state. Marriage is less and less valued.

Human culture can advance but the state of the Human soul does not and that is why men need Christianity.

If Christianity hasn't fixed man now, I doubt it ever will. I think the only way to stop crime is to hang the people that rape and murder. Sending a strong message to everyone else thinking of doing the same. It would be much better than waiting till the person dies so that god can punish them.

Or kill them other ways. And I doubt any religion will 'fix' many people, especially since there's the odd evil-worshiping religion.

I have a question for Christians!



This is like the total opposite of what Paul said about the old law. Why do Christians listen to Paul over Jesus? I understand that Paul was vital to the spread of Christianity; not many people like the idea of abstaining from bacon and cutting off their foreskin to convert to a religion, but this seems to be the biggest contradiction in the bible!

I'm Christian and I don't have nothing more to say.

Here's what I think on religion.

We see throughout history various peoples believing in different gods/deities like the Native Americans in many nature related ones, the people of Europe in catholicism/christianity(defined as different), etc.

What is the similiarity between all of them? The gods/deities manipulated something that the people had no understanding over like the sun. What IS the sun, where did it come from, why does it stay in the sky for half the day, different religions give different ideas on this.

In summary, religion was created by people to provide them with a means of retaining their sanity due to a lack of understanding their environment/surroundings/characteristics, etc.

For example, virtually everything explained in the Bible has a scientific explanation such as when some lake turned into blood during a plague, it apparently was caused by carbon monoxide gas that was released from the earth that caused the lake to turn a deep red.

I am not surprised by this because if you think about it, the Bible is full of stories which not only change over time but may be influenced by people's imagination/exaggeration of particular witnessed events, not to mention memory lies to people if too much time passes between the actual experience and when it was recorded(if even by the same person).

So what is religion? A means of providing an explanation to the unknown or what was previously unknown. Today as science evolves religion now obsolete.

Although, if there is no "god/gods" does that mean we came from monkeys, have no meaning to our lives, etc.? The answer to these depends on the person.

Evolution? Humans definitely evolved from something. I am unsure if you all are aware but I learned from one of my microbiology class that the mitochondria of human beings is extremely similar to an ancient bacteria, hence the mitochondria's ability to provide us with energy. It's called the endosymbiosis theory.

If you're religious that's your choice, my family may be religious, but I cannot stand having this vast knowledge of how the world/life works and providing the credit to some "almighty being"(that never shows themself, remains in their alternate dimension awaiting for our return for eternal misery or joy, etc.).

Note: when people get sensations in their bodies that's the "holy spirit" etc. that's also obviously just chemicals being released by your brain to cause them to occur in your body caused by the overzealous euphoria of your beliefs.

When we die, what happens to our memories? The memories of the moment your loved one laid his/her head on your shoulder. The memories of your father dying, you weeping by his bedside telling him how much you love him? The strongest memories in our mind - the memories we will never forget - what happens to those when we die?

When we die, what happens to our love? The burning passion of love we have felt. The feeling of never wanting to leave someone. What happens to that when we die?

Happiness, sadness, thoughts, memories, love, and so much more. These things make up our spirit. These things are the things that allow us to think for ourselves. The things that allow us to have passion for something. The things that make us unique. It's wonderful.

These things don't just die with our bodies. Our bodies are just vessels to carry our souls. To make us mortal. They are wonderful, beautiful things - but our spirit is even more.

So my view on Religion is - Yes, there must be a God. An almighty creator. I think people who don't believe in God are people who are scared of the unknown - people who would rather let science do the explaining. I feel bad for them because - knowing that you are safely in the hands of your God, when you die, and continuing living as an immortal - is the thought that keeps me going throughout my days. Gives me a purpose.

I am a Latter Day Saint and I'm proud of it. I know most people don't like us right now... But these are my thoughts on Relgion. I hope at least a few people read it.

That is pretty much the only logical reason I think people still believe in a God for. Science has taken God's hand out of the beginning of life, the creation of the universe, and pretty much everything else the Bible said God did except for the afterlife.

No, science cannot prove (as of yet) that there is no life after death. But on the same token, there is no evidence of a life after death. So it really is a shot in the dark. Like when your mom asks who ate the last cookie. She knows it is either you or your little brother, but she cannot prove who. There is no evidence, no facts. It is just your word against his. The prospect of the afterlife is like this too. Religon says there is one, science says there isn't, and there is nothing to support either side.

If you asked me, I would say there is no afterlife. It just seems ilogical to me. We are born, we live, we die. Why should there be more? As for our "spirit". It is a complicated series or neurons in our brain. When we die, our brain stays in our skull. (hopefully)

Another reason why I find the possibility of an afterlife unlikely is because it is written in the Bible. Everything the church has taught over the years has been proven wrong. Like how the Earth isn't flat, or that the Earth is not the center of our solar system, or that the Earth is much older then seven thousand years, or that God did not snap his fingers and make everything, or that the creatures of today evolved from the creatures of yesturday. So since so much that the church has taught is false, I don't see why the myth of the afterlife would be true.

WikiLeaks Cable: Vatican urged US not to prosecute bishops for sex abuse of minors

http://wikileaks.org/cable/2002/10/02VA ... .html#par6

Life after death is not only written about in the Bible. There are many people who are not Jewish or Christian who believe in it.

Anyway, although I suppose there are fundamentalist Christians who interpret the Bible literally and advocate whatever they get out of it I don't think (note that I am not expert on history and I haven't looked into this too much) that the Catholic Church has ever officially taught any of the things that you mentioned. The Catholic Church supports science and accepts anything it can prove beyond doubt. The Church does teach about the afterlife, however, because it is a matter of faith distinct from questions such as whether the earth is flat or not.

Besides in the past, among scientists of the time, if you allow me to call them that, some or all of them believed in or supported the things you posted and several other ridiculous things. There just wasn't any hard evidence to prove them otherwise. For example, Aristotle was the authority on science in his time.

If you have some time I would like you to read this regarding Galileo and Geo/Heliocentrism.

As far as the existence of God and/or an afterlife, many atheists use the argument that beyond the Bible or other religious texts, there's no evidence that they exist.

I would like to point out that there's no evidence that they don't.

As Azure said, this makes religion a stab in the dark; to trust, or not to trust? But I guess that's why they call it faith. To have the faith that beyond the grave, there will be a benevolent God (or not necessarily, depending on your beliefs) that will be able to judge you for your deeds. I can't say that there is or not; but I'm agnostic, so I believe that there must be something up there. There's just a lot of things that I see that I would imagine are caused by a deity of some sort.