Would moltres be good as a physical sweeper?

@leftovers/lum
N-Adament
A-pressure
EV's: 252 att, 252 spd, 6 hp

Okay, following the success of my thread enquiring about the legality and method of getting this moveset, I bring you my extreme Serene Grace abuser... Dunsparce!

@leftovers

Adamant
Serene Grace
252 Attack 252 HP 6 Speed

Body Slam
Headbutt
Ancientpower
Substitute

So let's recap. 60% Paralysis and 60% Flinch from two strong STABed attacks. Ancientpower giving a 20% chance to make it The Juggernaut. and Substitute and Lefties because it's cool like that.

Just....awesome.

Well, the reason why Dunsparce's HoF set is Special other than Physical is because the Physical one is just way too common and not very creative idea anymore. A comment on it from me could have been found here.

Regarding Moltres, I can't say that I've seen Moltres much at all, so I don't entirely know about it. However, I'd believe that most would Special Sweeping anyway, so I could just test it.

I'll probably edit this with a nice load of results later.

Edit: Well, maybe not yet. :roll:


Edit 2, Results:

Okay, so I've done Mewtwo and Sceptile. Cacturne needs a little more testing, and I'm starting on Moltres and Claydol, too.

Mewtwo: Works; good enough for HoF. However, I did do a little change in it. For the 'Filler', I used Psychic. After a little while, I found that even Mewtwo's great stats wouldn't KO every Pokemon with only 10 PP for it. It sounds kind of ironic that that of all Pokemon/strategies would run out of PP. :roll: Anyway, I replaced Double Team with Calm Mind and it worked much better from there. I'll put the set I that worked best in the HoF when I get to it.

Edit 3: After some consideration, Mewtwo's set has been combined with the other Mewtwo set in the so it would seem a little less standard and redundant.

Sceptile: I was reconsidering it for a few battles and just decided that it would be better as an alternative Standard set rather than HoF. After all, it does look like it would be great in game.

If you haven't tested moltres yet, switch Aerial Ace with HP flying.

Hmm... well, I'm not sure if this is actually used, but it's not on the Smogon site. So,

Tank Venusaur @Chesto Berry/Leftovers
Nature: Depends on attack used:
If Razor Leaf: Bold (+Def -Att)
If Sludge Bomb: Impish (+Def -Sp. Att)
EV's: 252 D, 252 SD, 4HP
- Razor Leaf/Sludge Bomb
- Rest
- Leech Seed
- Toxic
Another Grass/Poison kills this, and a cleric defeats its purpose, especially a Blissey/some other high Sp.Def cleric. Never tried it, and made up one day while thinking what to do with a Bulbasaur to try to make it good.

EDIT: Yes, forgot it could learn Toxic. Whoops.

Shouldn't you replace poison powder w/toxic?

Wow, I should have done this much earlier. :roll:

First of all, Toxic would definitely be better than Poison Powder. I guess it's fine for now, and I'll just change some when I get to testing.

And now some results:

Cacturne: So-so. It did well in some parts, but it just kept fainting the rest of the time. The major reasons were because you're usually slower than the opponent and this would happen: They either attack or switch to a better choice (one that I'd usually have to switch out on) and I'd get a Substitute (which would leave me with even less HP if I was already attacked). I'd then confuse them and hope they don't kill me on the next turn. If they don't, I need to get Leech Seed up, then Substitute again, then Teeter Dance if they snap out every now and then. So basically, it worked fine if most every little detail went well. And finally, once the opponent sees that you only have Focus Punch for attacking, they can easily take you down. If I were to edit around it, it would seem too much similar to the one already in the HoF and too standard. I'll just do what I did with Mewtwo with this Pokemon, too.

Moltres: An option would be to consider this for more of a standard than creative on a second look. Anyway, it could possibly use a Choice Band, along with the HP Flying edit (which I had already given it at the time ). Maybe sN0w can respond on what he thinks about the standard aspect, or I'll just end up editing this later. Anyway, it did okay. A main reason for it being standard would be because this would normally be better in game and because it might not seem creative at times.

Claydol: Well, it worked twice. However, it couldn't keep going because the next Pokemon would be a faster sweeper, and I'd have to switch out or face a STABed Surf. A possibility would be to have Cosmic Power, but you'd have to wait until you used Psych Up to use it; if not, you'd lose what you'd just boosted for what you copied. So, no, it just doesn't cut it.

Venusaur: To be tested.

@ leftovers
brave
252 atk 172 sp. atk 84 hp

surf
earthquake
subsitute
focus punch

subpunch-blastoise. you can maybe even take out sub for ice beam to counter grasses if you got good prediction.

I have a comment if you don't mind.

Why would a standard for blastoise be subpunching? Usually subpunching is for pokemon that have extremely high attack stats or that have very useful special moves and focus punch is for a powerful physical move if needed or for the switch.

Hi guys, haven't been on for a while so I don't really know what's happened. Anyway, I had a thought about a moveset, but let me know if it's been done before.

@ Leftovers
Serene Grace | Modest
210-HP 210-Def 56-Spd 54-SD
-Wish
-Yawn
-Dream Eater
-Softboiled

OR

-Yawn
-Dream Eater
-Substitute
-Softboiled

Both are HP based, sort of a tanking/special sweeper (I think) which works pretty well in both movesets because at least 2 moves are aimed at HP gathering. I don't know how Serence Grace impacts (say) Yawn, but it's better than missing a good bit more. Though Hustle may be a better idea if it increases the amount of HP recovered...

Comments anyone?

I am sorry if this has been posted already(I dont want to read through 60 pgs. but here is one i thought of

Toxic
Protect
Detect
Leafblade
Use toxic than switch between Protect and Detect and when they have there HP low enough you hit them with leaf Blade

If they aren't independent, we need to make a change to smeargle's choice moveset. http://psypokes.com/dex/movesets.php?id=235

If they are independent, then the only problem is that sceptile can't trap them with mean look/block/spider web.

Protect, Detect and Endure each lower the chance of the next Protect/Detect/Endure of working. So yes, the Smeargle's set is a little bit off. That also means that nothing will happen with Sceptile.

On Togetic: I personally wouldn't rely on a Sleep then Dream Eater combo, because it only works if the opponent is asleep. They can wake up, and then you have to put them back to sleep again, or they can just switch. This especially doesn't work well if you're slow. With Togetic, it emphasizes the weaknesses much more. You don't have very good Speed, Yawn takes an extra turn to work and Dream Eater is your only damaging move. Nothing stops the opponent from switching to a type that Dream Eater's bad against or just one with Insomnia or Vital Spirit. There's a lot that can stop this, and there's a lot that this will have no chance against. Sorry, but it's just not going to work.

So, Venusaur and Walrein (which I don't have much to comment on) to be tested.

Thanks tiger10x, I'll have to move it around a bit...

@ scope lens
Serene Grace | Modest
210-HP 210-Def 56-Spd 54-SD
-Wish/Double Team
-Substitute
-Magical Leaf/Psychic/Water Pulse/Shock Wave/Flamethrower
-Softboiled

OR

-Wish/Doublt Team
-Substitute
-Focus Punch/Aerial Ace/Shadow Ball/Steel Wing
-Softboiled

Or maybe sub-punching togetic just doesn't work...hmm...

Physical moves on Togetic are kinda wasted IMo, Togetic's base attack is 45, which is horrible. If you're going the first, Spec. Sweeper set, then I'd say Water Pulse/Flamethrower/Psychic would be the best because of Serene Grace increasing their effectiveness, second effect wise.

I made a creative moveset too... Phys. Sweeping Magmar. It has 95 base attack, as well as 93 speed, IIRC.

Magmar @ Focus Band/Liechi Berry/Leftovers
EV's: 252 Att. 252 Speed, 6 Whatever...
(Adamant Nature)
- Cross Chop/Brick Break
- Return
- Iron Tail
- Hidden Power (Ground/Ghost)

Attack power's maxed, speed's maxed... only problem with it is its horrendous Defense and HP.

EDIT: Ok, I've also made another one... Spec. Sweeping Exploud! *is shot* Really though, it's Sp.Att is the same as it's attack, 91. Not so bad... I guess... got a horrible 68 speed though. Might want to consider BPing speed from Ninjask to this.

Exploud @ Petaya Berry/Quick Claw (lol)
EV's: 252 Sp. Att, 240 Speed, 18 Def.
(Modest Nature)
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam/Sunny Day
- Thunderpunch/Solar Beam
- Extrasensory

Two ways to go here, either all out with spec. attacks, or subbing Ice Beam and Thunderpunch for Sunnybeam. I took out Ice Beam because Sunny Day would overwrite the small chance of freezing and Thunderpunch because it was the weakest move.

I swear, all the moves it can learn! Look in the Smogondex or Psydex, they're there!

CBtogetic. Maybe just an alternative to the standard, but worth a run to try to get into the CMHoF

@Choice Band
A-Hustle
N-Adament
EV's: 252 Att, 252 Spd, 6 Hp

Meh... as I said before on Togetic, 45 Base Attack kinda kills the point in Physical moves...

Anyway, my creative moveset: Spec. Sponge/Tank Mantine.

Mantine @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 Sp. Def, 128 Def, 128 HP.
Calm | Water Absorb
- Toxic
- Rest
- Mud Sport/Protect
- Surf

Strat: Toxic first, then Mud Sport/Protect. Surf, using rest when needed, or if you chose Protect, then you alternate between Surf and Protect, Resting when needed.

I think it'll work... I'd suggest trying Mud Sport first, because of the Electric thing. Zapdos, with max Spec. Attack, using Thunder on it, here are the results:

Without Mud Sport: about 525 IIRC.
With Mud Sport: 256 IIRC.

Huge difference, eh? I know for a fact that without Mud Sport, you're going to be OHKO'd.

I find it hard to believe it would work for maybe 2 reasons:
1) Mud Sport brings it down to a 2x weakness, and Mantine's not the most SD heavy pokemon out there. Even if it survives, which is possible nonetheless, how much HP would it have left?
2) Toxic is easily negated by shed skin, natural cure, immunity, and steel-types. Even then, it doesn't help if the opponent gets switched out for (say) Metagross or Skarmory.

I will concede, though, that your mantine does indeed have good prospects, since not that many have the above mentioned...negations...

On the other hand, I say Walrein, Wailord, and Milotic are the best at tanking and toxi-infliction, given the right moveset.

@ leftovers
Thick Fat | Bold/Calm/Impish/Quiet/Relaxed/Sassy/Timid
248-Def 248-SD 14-HP
-Rest
-Snore
-Toxic
-Surf/Ice Beam/Water Pulse

Standard I think, toxic opponent, rest and snore where needed, maybe Water Pulse to confuse?

Um, excuse me? 140 base special defense is NOT something to be laughed at. If you max it out its 416 Sp. Def. I tested it yesterday with Damage Calc.

And I should also point out that Metagross and Skarm and the like are OU, while Mantine is UU. Not to be mixed you see, for UU battles only, where it can only be countered by things like UU poisons and the few UU Shed Skin/Natural Curers.

And if Toxic isn't that good, then why does EVERYTHING from Milotic to Skarmory have it today? Because they can take hits, plain and simple. This Mantine can too. Spec. Sponge/Tank.

Your moveset looks good. Toxic, then Rest when needed and still deal damage. One counter for it I can think of right now is Gengar: Resists both Toxic and Snore, making your fourth move the only thing that can hurt it. It kills the point in Snore... and it is somewhat OU these days... Water Pulse would probably help, sacrificing 35 base power for confusion. Confusion makes the damage easier as well as stalls them, because they can't hit you.

You'd need Umbreon's ML/BP first though, because they could easily switch out, negating confusion... I'd say it'll probably work.