Thank you I've been needing to see a ban list to build my conpettitive team . Thanks!

Ahhh, good, the total balzkein ban is no longer is effect. Im am, still a little dissapointed that I cant use balzkein w Speed boost, Since I find Blaze totally USLESS. But thats just me.

The total ban is still in effect on Smogon, but not in Psypoke related tournaments.

Ok so I didnt really want to make new threda just for this question, btu I think this sorta fits in here,

The Faq im using stated that Bounce is illegal on a Gyrados with the Moxie ability. Has this been confirmed? If so why would it be illegal?

Dream World abilities and Gen 4 Move Tutors are all (going to be) banned I believe. Moxie and Outrage on Salamence for example.

Not sure why.

So, obviously it can't work for Gyarados as Karp gets no egg moves.

But would a Male Salamence with Outrage not pass down Outrage onto the offspring of a Female Mence with Moxie?

EDIT STUPID QUESTION JUST IGNORE ME

Is Kyurem banned? Currently I am trying to find a replacement.

Bounce Is legal on Gyarados as Magikarp can Have the Move Bounce in the Dream world.
also dream bagon isn't released yet.
No kyrem is not Banned However I is still hard to use, because It is banned on GBU, Wi-fi Flat battle and in the battle subway (VGWC too)

vXv - I'm on about Pokemon Online as opposed to in game so as to reach all possibilities. Either way, Gen 4 Move Tutor Moves and Dream World abilities are illegal.

It' seems that PO has banned Chandelure from the DW metagame, and smogon will likely follow once they start testing unreleased ability pokemon. So should we just add Chandelure (w/Shadow tag) to the list now? Or once it's actually released?

http://91.121.73.228/

I agree. I think I read somewhere on Smogon that Chandelure with Shadow Tag WAS banned. It may have been deleted though.

Also, why isnt Wobbuffet on there? He becomes something that is nearly imposible to counter with Shadow Tag and Counter and Mirror Coat.



And not related, but I think Quick Claw should be banned as well.

Smogon are re-analysing everything. And quite rightly in my opinion.

I've run into several Wobbufett whilst roaming through the Pokemon online servers and i've only ever lost a pokemon to a wobbufett once. A mixture of alot of entry hazards rolling around (I currently have Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes and Spikes on my team courtesy of Infernape and Forrtress) and the ever increasing power creep have made Wobbufett quite vulnerable.

Chandelure on the other hand. I fully agree with it's banning with Spell Tag. Choice Specs Overheat is ridiculously powerful. I've managed to do 50% damage to Bulky T-Tars in Sand Storms.

Stuff I personally think should be banned...

- Quick Claw
- Kings Rock (Hate Jirachi)
- Sand Stream + Sand Rush
- Drought + Chlorophyll

(Last to completely based upon Drizzle + Swift Swim, I don't understand why Rain teams should be punished but Sand and Sun teams shouldn't. Excadrill and Venasuar are absolute BEASTS under their respective weather conditions)

The way I personally see it is...(in the eyes of the 'abuser')

Drizzle + Swift Swim.
Pro: Speed Boost. Water Moves get a boost.
Cons: Team can be ran through quite easily if another weather abuser prevails due to poor type coverage. Increases Thunder's accuracy. (Thunder not common as Swift Swim + Drizzle are banned. If it weren't I feel as though Thunder would be standard)

Sandstream + Sand Rush.
Pro: Speed Boost. Opposing Team recieve residual damage. Sp.Def boost. Sand Veil, Sand Force are and also ripe for the abusing.
Con: Team needs to be primarily Rock/Steel/Ground.

Drought + Chlorophyll
Pro: Speed Boost. Solar Beam Charges in one turn. Fire power up. Solar Power ripe for the abusing.
Con: Opposing Fire types receive power boost.

I just don't feel that Drizzle out performs Sandstream all that much. I'm pretty sure a good Drizzle team would beat a good Sandstorm team, but thats more down to the typings the teams are centered around than anything else. But i've played against Drizzle/Sandstorm/Drought Teams and the sandstorm teams were definitely the most difficult to shut down.

Now i'm sure theres probably alot more. But at the moment I've only just got outta bed and am quite tired.

I think the main reason for the Driz+SwSw ban is because, unlike sand, sun and hail abusers, the SwSw abusers not only get a speed boost but also a double boost on their water type moves, which are usually already STAB boosted. Water is a great offensive type anyway, but now its getting a 2x boost to it's normal power. To put that in perspective, a pokemon that normally resists water (for instance, Venusaur) is essentially getting hit by a normally effective move. And there's not many OU caliber pokemon that 4x resist water type moves.

Sun boosts fire type moves just as much as rain boosts water, but the difference comes from the fact that all the chlorophyll pokemon are grass type, not fire type, so their STAB moves get no extra benefit from the sun (solarbeam excluded of course, but even then its somewhat uncommon because of the fear of other weather changers). So the only other benefit beyond extra speed that a Chlorophyller gets is a boosted Hidden Power Fire, and even then they have to be specially based. Sand and hail don't provide any boost to typed moves, of course. But if Sun naturally boosted grass moves, or Sand natually boosted rock or ground moves, then Drought+Chloro and SandStream+SR/SF bans would be just as viable as Driz+SwSw.

Not a huge issue when you build the team around it and give the rest leftovers. Of the current top 10:

| 1 | Ferrothorn/Immune
| 2 | Tyranitar/Immune+S.def boost
| 3 | Scizor/Immune
| 4 | Garchomp/Immune and evasion boost
| 5 | Gliscor/Immune with a very rare evasion boost
| 6 | Latios/ A sweeper who usually doesn't care.
| 7 | Excadrill/Immune w/ x2 speed or a 33% boost to Edge/quake
| 8 | Reuniclus/Immune
| 9 | Heatran/Immune
| 10 | Rotom-W/ Highest used that it affects, but leftovers null the damage.



I think you mean x2 unless mechanics changed since last gen. the boost added to the base not the STABed base

Surf = 95
+STAB = 142.5
+STAB&Rain = 190

And according to Smogon's damage calc. LO Kingdra vs. LO Venusaur

Surf does 34.9%
w/ rain does 52.2%
Same stats but removing the Venusaur's grass type
Surf does 70.1%
w/ rain does 104.1%

From what I watched prior to the rain/swim ban, teams could handle 1-2 SW sweepers decently, but teams with 3-5 just couldn't regain any control due to the insane speed numbers it brings. Although Chlorophyll is less of a power threat (aside from growth acting and SD and NP at once in the sun.) The speed threat can can be just as overwhelming. Also many get Sleep powder to abuse with the speed to break counters.

And few Drought/Chorophyll teams go on without a Flash fire user to take those boosted attacks.

yeah that. i cant do math today, blah

Garchomp needs to be added to the list.

Would someone be able to explain to me why the Gen 4 move tutor moves are banned? I'm rather curious

Garchomp IS on the list.

Gen 4 tutor moves are banned, because... put it this way. If a Pokemon has a Dream World ability, that means that it must be from gen 5, right? So that means that it was a Pokemon obtained in a gen 5 game. Now, for a Pokemon to learn a Gen 4 tutor move, it must have been in a gen 4 game, because those gen 4 tutors are no longer in gen 5. However, there is no way to transfer a Pokemon from a gen 5 game to a gen 4 game. So because your Pokemon has a Dream World ability and therefore came from a gen 5 game, there is no possible way for it to learn a move that it could only learn in gen 4. Therefore the combination is banned.

I've been on Smogon and PO, and I think the main reason why rain is more broken than the other weathers is because of the number of Pokemon it breaks, not benefits. Being immune to sandstorm can't really be considered "broken", they aren't that much more difficult to beat. On the other hand, a select few Pokemon are boosted to ridiculous lengths in rain that almost no other Pokemon can match up to.

Here are a list of Pokemon that can be "broken" by a particular weather.

Sand:
- Excadrill: Sand Rush gives him nearly unstoppable speed, outspeeding max speed Deoxys-S. On top of that, he has 110 HP and 135 Attack. After a swords dance, he destroys teams unless you have a good counter.
Counters: Gliscor
Checks: Breloom, Conkeldurr, Band Azumarill, Scarf Deoxys-N
- Landorus: This guy isn't even "broken" that much by sand, but he has Sand Power, which gives a huge boost to his Edgequake combo. He is also quite speedy (101 speed) so he can make for an effective powerhouse sweeper in sand that can OHKO many Pokemon.
Counters: Anything with good bulk and an ice move

Sun:
- Venusaur: After a growth, this guy is unstoppable. Although he lacks coverage, he is around the speed of max speed Deoxys-S in the sun and basically gets a Swords Dance and a Nasty Plot at the same time in one move.
Counters: Depends on what hidden power Venusaur has. He always has something that walls him, but it changes depending on what he has. Possible counters: Dragonite, Salamence, Virizion, Balloon Heatran, Skarmory, Bulky Gengar, some others

Rain:
- Kingdra: With one weakness and decent bulk, Kingdra is already good enough as he is. Add on swift swim, and he outspeeds almost every Pokemon in the game. Finish off with a boosted Waterfall and Sub Dragon Dance, and this guy is uber.
Counters: Ferrothorn
- Ludicolo: Ludicolo's weakness was always in speed. So slap on a specs, give him his speed through rain, then you can rip through teams with a boosted Hydro Pump. He's one of the best special swift swim sweepers out there.
Counters: Not really sure, cause I haven't seen this guy too much. Probably anything with a resistance to his STABs, neutrality to Ice and a crippling move.
Checks: My scarf Genesect outspeeds and OHKOs with U-Turn. Anything faster that can also OHKO will work.
- Kabutops: Kabutops also gets ridiculous speed after rain, and then he can swords dance and sweep with waterfall and stone edge without a hitch. He's not the fastest guy out there, but has Aqua Jet to make up for that.
Counters: Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, Keldeo (DW only)
Checks: Breloom, Conkeldurr, A fast Pokemon with a powerful SE move.
- Toxicroak: After dry skin and leftovers, this guy recovers almost 25% damage every turn, which means he can use substitute without penalty, and also gives him surprisingly high bulk. Once he's behind a sub, he can swords dance up, then rip through teams with Sucker Punch and Drain Punch.
Counters: Very few
- Vaporeon: Hydration Rest and immunity to Toxic Spikes. 'Nuff said.
Counters: Zapdos, Thundurus. Not breloom, because he gets cooked by Ice Beam.

Ok, yeah the above information is probably really inaccurate in loads of areas, but the general idea is that there are far more Pokemon to worry about in rain than in any other weather. You can take out an Excadrill or a Venusaur eventually. But you can't take out a team of Kabutops, Ludicolo, Toxicroak and Kingdra out without luck and insane skill. That's why Drizzle + Swift Swim is banned.

The reason Wobbuffet isn't banned is because of entry hazards and power creep, but also because of Encore nerf. Encore now can only last up to 2 turns, which means that by the time Wobbuffet has switched out to the setup sweeper, the Encore has ended, and you'll be especially screwed if they've just had two Quiver Dances or something.

Shadow Tag Chandelure isn't just banned because of its power, it's because of its trapping ability. In a sense, it's the new Wobbuffet. With a scarf, it is decently fast, and can revenge kill a huge number of Pokemon with its power. A scarf Chandelure can come in on a Rayquaza's Extremespeed, then OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. I think a scarfed Overheat will also OHKO Extremekiller Arceus under the sun, which means he can revenge kill one of the biggest threats in uber. Also, with the huge rise in Ho-Oh and Reshiram usage, Groudon is flying up through the ranks, and that makes more sun to use for Chandelure's Overheat.

@ Ethereal Ice
Gen IV tutored moves on a Pokemon with a DW ability are illegal, because of a couple of reasons. If you teach a Pokemon a move from a Gen IV tutor, then transfer it to BW, it can't just magically gain a DW ability. And since DW ability Pokemon are only in BW, you can't transfer them back to Gen IV to be tutored a move. Makes sense now? To make it simple, any Pokemon that has both is a hack.

It was added in after I made that post :p

@twistedturtwig

I was under the impression that gen IV tutors in general were banned and not the combination of DW abilities and tutors, I suppose that each on their own are fine (with certain exceptions of course).